跟贾陆英老师学《论语》为政篇第1章 2013年12月13日

     今日下午3：30贾陆英老师《论语》问答录在老秘网QQ群“重温经典读书会”准时开讲。本期学习讨论《论语》为政篇第1章，网友们的参与热情高涨。老猫出差刚回，现整理如下：

" O# c+ Y: K5 }( R2 J, smso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">

' Q# X# R4 h6 imso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：" J' V" u7 o$ e" G3 s" S5 A 0pt">

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# Q V K: l7 e7 p% n mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">今天下午，我们学习讨论《论语》为政篇第% I4 m/ I* c m# J; p* I3 N mso-font-kerning:0pt">11 C) ]1 H4 E' {" V1 G% h font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; + h! Y8 s- V: A& r+ l1 Gmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">章：( r1 S7 [0 g* s mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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2•1* i" @$ L3 n% r2 a. U& s dTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">子曰：) h0 Z, @. Z& E! l) |- p! O mso-font-kerning:0pt">"9 J1 V9 A2 v0 l. o6 H mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">为政以德，譬如北辰，居其所而众星共之。3 b+ r: v) ~% t0 |* X; i/ hcolor:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">"
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4 \. L6 N: Y' _5 U8 hmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">北辰：指北极星。所：处所、位置。共：同拱，环绕。比喻众多的人簇拥着一个被他们尊敬的人，或许多东西围绕着一个中心。! \# c# L- K: [. ?mso-font-kerning:0pt">
1 Z: ~. n8 c! W Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; ' s7 {# H( v+ Lmso-font-kerning:0pt">孔子说：9 p6 q0 A7 ]5 J! l- A( \10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">“( i' \: }0 G" tmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; , Z+ P% `% J8 ^mso-font-kerning:0pt">靠高尚的品德来施政，这样的为政者好比是北极星，居于自己的位置上，众多的星星都环绕着它。+ E! n- y. w; E) P mso-font-kerning:0pt">”

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* n+ t! A# ^8 c/ X" m; l0 xmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">问：这句话表达了孔子的什么主张？! q) F3 c% K- J. m" j: u# t3 p0 `5 N color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">
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9 ~9 t+ j! M. ]7 @" u" R7 B* D- g+ r mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ' `) k" z! |. c* a& Q K1 ^3 [Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">答：孔子以北辰居其中而众星环绕作比喻，深刻揭示了具有高尚品德对于为政者的重要性，具体、形象、生动地表达了孔子的德治思想。当时，在如何治理国家的问题上，主要有两种主张：其一是依靠政令刑法，强制百姓服从；其二是通过道德教化，引导百姓走上正道。孔子主张后者，强调为政者首先要以自己高尚的品德为榜样，尔后才能教化、影响、引导民众。7 O3 m: D+ ]% U( p; B mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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% ^ I7 S+ R0 v mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">仁政具体指的是什么？道德层面的东西我觉得都太虚了，没有一个标准。同志们认为呢- n' C1 O; R3 Gmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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, j. J) y" m* {( {2 @0 J* Vmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：3 T0 j5 B5 M; D$ i! @0pt">

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. C' Y: t2 c/ T' S2 i5 Z10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 7 }! x$ J8 O5 C4 j/ ]mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服，以礼仪道德，民治而心服. U$ h0 _5 I! Y% P8 y F mso-font-kerning:0pt">——" Y# e4 B5 d" ^! J: P3 L font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的，这就是孔子说的9 P% D, S% q! |mso-font-kerning:0pt">"* i2 J* u# n/ f9 j: a3 g font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; " e5 g4 S ~( W' _mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。3 v; |( f; v0 m& o mso-font-kerning:0pt">"

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* t& C& [+ B( {) Lmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: & o6 ^4 T8 f" W& a2 b& c0 [$ E$ ] [Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">无心随风：9 x4 h. j( @( m% S; j 0pt">

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( g m' z0 u( K' @. n1 w$ U$ r M 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？孔子的人性不分善恶，他信奉有教无类。我认为是孔子信奉的是德治礼治，而不是德治法治，儒法结合是后人的创新" r$ V/ I; M5 Q) t# D( Y& C- e& p; } mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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7 I# V3 q9 \" o" ~! q+ B& ^mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: * m: W) M7 ^9 \( _+ p3 yTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒家法家绝对是治国两大法宝，是不是有说内法外王。希望依靠道德来治理国家。道德高尚至极只能是圣人，而不是君王。君王要有仁爱之心，但不能妄想通过道德来治理国家吧。干部要清明、清廉、清白) U5 t @/ |) |* ^! w# ^6 A7 l: Y mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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- H) _+ S; C, b, A) _ mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想。儒法相结合不是从以往执政者所言的外儒内法。应该是在去除封建统治者为维护统治所宣扬的糟粕基础上，留下儒家所宣扬的大仁、大爱的思想，在结合现代化的法制、民主的精神，才是真正的儒法结合。一味从古，不如不学: L9 l" b- D+ {+ B mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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$ F/ }6 A/ ]) S* W, O3 Z! mmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 5 J9 G- P/ l% F3 @! N! ZTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：6 P5 I! U2 C* _& |$ s" q 0pt">

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$ n* o1 `* J L c mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ; H4 E6 v4 n/ U2 {# d; e' [Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">现在不是都在强调以民为本，为人民服务么5 T; r I( {( @/ n8 G6 U+ |' @2 x+ mmso-font-kerning:0pt">——6 r8 d0 _/ \) T: \6 |4 r0 z, O* b font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">这一思想的文化渊源，就是德治、仁政思想。德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？8 u/ y4 ~5 F5 `) G2 v! vmso-font-kerning:0pt">——2 k( [$ e, b/ `0 E( } O; u$ @9 f font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 3 D% [4 O. |7 {6 U, xmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的。为政者之德，还要突出以身作则，正人先正己，为下属作出表率。4 m7 F1 ^- m+ j) c! @4 E0pt"> ' j/ j- R8 e/ M$ Q7 v0 L1 P- w Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">“贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想”, Q: b2 k+ P+ L4 rmso-font-kerning:0pt">——5 j* U$ B& A" d W" {/ Mfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; C4 x4 ~+ A- z1 `4 pmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">基本赞同。孔子所说$ E( k7 c8 W! f% F" F mso-font-kerning:0pt">"7 b2 C; ~( Q; b font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。9 i, R1 j+ Z( B mso-font-kerning:0pt">"2 q- S% g8 F% _5 b2 u+ G# }- G9 V' B. Y font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; , e3 C2 Z; I7 Vmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">本身就包含着德治与法治相结合的观点。9 d5 l( p8 v# j7 {" D9 u" l; [mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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/ ~* D0 Y6 _( Nmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 8 o% X# U- o. t* N$ pTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">睡虫西麦：: w& l5 Z' q$ n' a, p( B- A9 L0pt">

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7 [6 p& ~: @9 [: D- w3 u$ s C Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 

, F8 g/ n2 y2 | mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ) m# k! s( }* {. f! gTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以礼仪道德，民治而心服3 d( o, F: c: m$ x2 n: o- Q: K0pt">    : a) X5 x/ C$ D2 H4 m: }font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本善+ _. h. U0 Y3 `. Amso-font-kerning:0pt">     - a) I, v) P, M7 Qmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服8 Y" ~! e5 b d: @6 N10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> ! ~* j( U4 c* N2 Z; K. { mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; - ]: \6 \# ~% T& D. ^7 _* I. q4 ^mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本恶。人性本善，礼仪道德，天下大和。人性本恶，礼仪道德，与虎谋皮啊) |, q, k! Y( ?1 A/ F9 U# smso-font-kerning:0pt">

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$ v9 V- v- Q q, vmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">政令刑法重在社会上的约束，讲究实效，不遵守即被处罚，道德教化重在精神上、舆论上的约束，不遵守会被谴责和孤立，但不是收到立竿见影的实质处罚9 U, d: |# O* f# f0 @0 C! @mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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% u6 V) X+ h% I! ` mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：& N' N- d; U B0 C8 m 0pt">

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% w" k4 _* ?$ g9 l$ e3 x* ~& |) G mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 9 r6 Q$ x3 T+ [ ^Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒学是以伦理道德思想为特质的观念体系，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的显著特征之一。儒学是以礼乐文明为中心的文化系统，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的又一显著特征。现在确有一些人认为，道德修养方面的问题是* s9 H+ g! c2 h% j: fmso-font-kerning:0pt">“! ]* i9 {9 o, d! \, A# L9 Jfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">细节问题: ?# @2 \6 |2 Q0 k: P, W mso-font-kerning:0pt">”- T0 d: k6 v9 \: e& i x! D8 n% @ font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，没有必要小题大做。这种认识是十分错误和有害的。$ Y2 I( ^# T4 g$ ]- k6 {( `mso-font-kerning:0pt">“, t: w6 p7 ~; }font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">千里之堤，溃于蚁穴( [$ B1 |5 T, T6 k$ z& w( R( A9 Y mso-font-kerning:0pt">”$ ]7 K0 Q$ b) D2 B9 Afont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; : f4 b# ?0 z i) k0 M8 u/ v4 h! |mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，少数人走上违法犯罪道路，往往是从道德品质上出问题开始的。没有职业操守，就不可能做到爱岗敬业。我们培养敬业精神，一定要紧紧抓住加强道德修养这个重点。

好多领导都喜欢说几句

贾老师，不愧是儒学精英。

感谢了，学习了哈！:D

听君一席话，胜读十年书啊

看君一篇文，胜读十年书！

看了老师们的点评和解说，胜读十年书！

感谢，为什么有乱码啊？

学习了，受到了很多启发