跟贾陆英老师学《论语》为政篇第1章 2013年12月13日

     今日下午3：30贾陆英老师《论语》问答录在老秘网QQ群“重温经典读书会”准时开讲。本期学习讨论《论语》为政篇第1章，网友们的参与热情高涨。老猫出差刚回，现整理如下：

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H! h3 f& u# D. N mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：2 H: n* p, `+ e" I! } 0pt">

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2 ?; U. }! H, Vmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 1 B! |6 b9 u" x1 B) A% oTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">今天下午，我们学习讨论《论语》为政篇第0 a8 G3 p: g6 B! H! @* b mso-font-kerning:0pt">11 i% I3 `1 p8 w4 v1 O8 i) s8 b$ U4 Lfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">章：7 w* ], `6 p) L& {. F4 f mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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4 o: i! K( I3 P1 `1 t e! c2•1, A9 L6 I+ d, |- F! BTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; & h' ?; B; O3 T* ]6 l6 ^, Pmso-font-kerning:0pt">子曰：, h+ C+ H# s) ~7 H2 j" r mso-font-kerning:0pt">"1 ~8 S7 f, I# K8 K" z' E$ i& ~mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 5 ^8 ^! m, e5 Z5 K; U8 K( wmso-font-kerning:0pt">为政以德，譬如北辰，居其所而众星共之。4 J2 Z& v, o0 ~* N: h8 U! a) ] color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">"
0 l* w, `* J* L( E/ T

9 d! R$ ~# p+ e2 `5 l( b7 |/ B! k

+ t- W( L. {# M |- B& C' z4 K! r mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 1 l g6 [ s$ @7 c; ]Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">北辰：指北极星。所：处所、位置。共：同拱，环绕。比喻众多的人簇拥着一个被他们尊敬的人，或许多东西围绕着一个中心。! g8 \. [+ r" E+ w) r. p% e mso-font-kerning:0pt">
4 B, p3 } C8 @6 O5 k% G+ v' _" Y' h' q$ g) @' _% Y5 bTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; . p% `' b+ q! ^! q; z* J/ q! k9 Nmso-font-kerning:0pt">孔子说：/ ^! r% Y) a0 }) ?; f5 Q" \10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">“0 A; `% V+ u$ Y( Hmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; I9 ]3 ]; ~# I0 y2 s" C3 hmso-font-kerning:0pt">靠高尚的品德来施政，这样的为政者好比是北极星，居于自己的位置上，众多的星星都环绕着它。; t( [0 R9 w' T! s" f( Q7 Amso-font-kerning:0pt">”
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" `9 w0 r5 M2 X- L% r8 Imso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; , T1 P/ M9 h3 S" ~! A, g2 Cmso-font-kerning:0pt">问：这句话表达了孔子的什么主张？, W" k- S4 P; j7 `' [" h color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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; ^$ O2 q9 z6 B) q" B mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 4 E) \$ _. \% ~; A* wTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">答：孔子以北辰居其中而众星环绕作比喻，深刻揭示了具有高尚品德对于为政者的重要性，具体、形象、生动地表达了孔子的德治思想。当时，在如何治理国家的问题上，主要有两种主张：其一是依靠政令刑法，强制百姓服从；其二是通过道德教化，引导百姓走上正道。孔子主张后者，强调为政者首先要以自己高尚的品德为榜样，尔后才能教化、影响、引导民众。9 W. V6 [, I4 pmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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. z9 J" F# U5 `+ U mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: % s2 S, A* X9 Y1 L+ aTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服，以礼仪道德，民治而心服$ L: [% [" H$ Y( w3 Z mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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- e+ ]0 N( U; C0 f8 D# ] Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">Leslie( k% u, [ J2 _: ]' F# W 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">：- y8 b, Y& O, y# G4 f& [3 C3 K9 B mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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' D9 `* D8 {) J2 E7 I1 F; j mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: $ X+ q% L4 V5 `% eTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">仁政具体指的是什么？道德层面的东西我觉得都太虚了，没有一个标准。同志们认为呢( s T$ x" O7 U- o mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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1 E4 l% y1 @0 |" Y6 s9 e3 imso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：+ _! |9 f; b" i, N; Q: ~1 S A0pt">

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7 z1 v# S4 n; M4 {7 B j* i1 P# ?, n5 U6 m 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; + ?# u: r8 Z: C: _. Gmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服，以礼仪道德，民治而心服+ l: z6 z! {) c! V, g( v" T mso-font-kerning:0pt">——: Q3 H$ H. q6 ]! m# r9 ~4 ?) r font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的，这就是孔子说的" Y7 V6 Y( S! y' O% R2 w% r0 tmso-font-kerning:0pt">"0 L* {8 W% R6 B& y& Ofont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; ; F3 _+ ]7 F5 Y& w- n" @mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。, x1 _9 _7 n# E8 q. ~0 nmso-font-kerning:0pt">"

( G. F: u4 s" A: g- Y) M' M mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">无心随风：, r& T4 b) k$ s/ X2 t# ^0pt">

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* J! O* [; \6 P& b c10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; ; L1 I+ @# p# K" K {5 |0 ]6 qmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？孔子的人性不分善恶，他信奉有教无类。我认为是孔子信奉的是德治礼治，而不是德治法治，儒法结合是后人的创新( {( z3 a2 C* @mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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5 H# w7 I: k3 E4 fmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 7 J2 p E5 ]4 A% g2 ZTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">好風如水：) o$ ^) A% |- i8 p M& @ 0pt">

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! B% j: ^9 j F6 { T) B3 mmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒家法家绝对是治国两大法宝，是不是有说内法外王。希望依靠道德来治理国家。道德高尚至极只能是圣人，而不是君王。君王要有仁爱之心，但不能妄想通过道德来治理国家吧。干部要清明、清廉、清白, l" h6 a. Q$ `# B2 Cmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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* X) S' i" [/ d; n" I6 V5 E" Imso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ! R; [ E* N; c( ?: P& q) iTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">破风弃俗：% O( E2 _ a" a& f: ?& U$ a 0pt">

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2 O: M( a8 O+ L) S) f. y# q/ W mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ( f# C! y2 E4 P. r2 T8 ^( FTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想。儒法相结合不是从以往执政者所言的外儒内法。应该是在去除封建统治者为维护统治所宣扬的糟粕基础上，留下儒家所宣扬的大仁、大爱的思想，在结合现代化的法制、民主的精神，才是真正的儒法结合。一味从古，不如不学& Q# U- |& {- z3 S1 s4 e mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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1 Z( `* u0 J3 K. L mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 6 Z9 \. |5 H% W$ p! O- }& ~4 B P% qTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：" [7 e7 n) d, U, U8 w 0pt">

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& E0 u0 o( N8 u6 _9 G$ y mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">现在不是都在强调以民为本，为人民服务么/ ?- @1 _9 z" m1 m3 |mso-font-kerning:0pt">——: E' L, M Z6 E- Cfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">这一思想的文化渊源，就是德治、仁政思想。德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？" v# [8 E5 i& Z( j: K mso-font-kerning:0pt">——' n' U* [* x- Gfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; # \: y3 {0 ]" o2 Smso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的。为政者之德，还要突出以身作则，正人先正己，为下属作出表率。7 l; R8 I7 [1 X" N3 W# d2 b+ y 0pt"> 4 L0 r- l- y8 ]! }/ ]; GTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 7 \2 ?7 i; f' b* A6 H" T; x3 K0 f5 Ymso-font-kerning:0pt">“贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想”" p7 |! N" N: k1 j& N+ q5 P+ dmso-font-kerning:0pt">——5 ?/ c. P9 p& b2 G3 H5 i! O8 Gfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; ' B0 Y/ V! l4 emso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">基本赞同。孔子所说$ L7 p, O, Z3 o, T! Y, z2 ^ mso-font-kerning:0pt">"3 o& J$ i9 D& }6 m; Z3 [font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。' _5 l: [2 `" ]$ A( l mso-font-kerning:0pt">"/ K0 h0 M9 P k font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">本身就包含着德治与法治相结合的观点。7 R9 o, O. L2 T$ a; |7 W8 L" _: H8 h4 bmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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( w, o4 _: P$ H& o" G/ R mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以礼仪道德，民治而心服' `0 W8 q8 ` n6 Z: ?" d: T0pt">    ( T5 t% d% d- N; p8 }font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; - {& @7 d1 \! H) kmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本善; H3 T, E! y/ r/ H1 ^4 v mso-font-kerning:0pt">     1 e. n# Z$ D: S0 w( Nmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; . F1 M( b0 P! i6 Y1 Mmso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服3 i& O) D' _, O. y4 x; u ` 10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> ; |& G6 L* ?* a" _mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本恶。人性本善，礼仪道德，天下大和。人性本恶，礼仪道德，与虎谋皮啊1 ~4 h0 V; \8 ^8 t mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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$ h s3 x. c# g/ _/ t mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">夕惕若：- f& v, F+ c }, f C9 o" X3 Y0pt">

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w5 E T/ ?* V/ i6 qmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">政令刑法重在社会上的约束，讲究实效，不遵守即被处罚，道德教化重在精神上、舆论上的约束，不遵守会被谴责和孤立，但不是收到立竿见影的实质处罚/ L; j3 U9 r( w% ?" J9 F" F: z mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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5 n: t6 A0 Q/ x' d7 X& {/ t2 @mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">小风飕飕地：( k1 B* `; x, Q4 J3 O 0pt">

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1 U& i' n: e; k. g/ _: L. U mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ( v, B* d% b/ H1 I& u5 TTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">我认为国治才能民安，所以教化没人人外儒是必要的，每个人也都有义务做到外儒！民安后如何能够实现久安呢？这就需要内法的作用啦！5 M$ T" W, Q) J: \ mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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* D( e2 e( ]9 v mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：' a# N" m1 v% ~7 @0pt">

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5 t( h4 D! ]: Y, n+ T+ H8 Y2 _! | mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 9 }1 N: U+ X2 x! h. uTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒学是以伦理道德思想为特质的观念体系，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的显著特征之一。儒学是以礼乐文明为中心的文化系统，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的又一显著特征。现在确有一些人认为，道德修养方面的问题是( M, {+ i8 N: Emso-font-kerning:0pt">“5 U0 b+ h4 o- U% ]font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; ) R& E" L! ^; s2 h; z" J% U# _mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">细节问题) a( d5 {( D, Y( D9 L, P' u% j o9 Bmso-font-kerning:0pt">”2 P4 o# e- F. D" N) Y$ t) Ifont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 6 [* F6 [! C, f* s5 imso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，没有必要小题大做。这种认识是十分错误和有害的。: d0 ?4 k; m: F* L! E# }1 }# h mso-font-kerning:0pt">“9 }( R* n; I8 ?% t$ s font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">千里之堤，溃于蚁穴9 T' e! ~: }' u; _ mso-font-kerning:0pt">”" [! y1 ?8 L% x3 F# vfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，少数人走上违法犯罪道路，往往是从道德品质上出问题开始的。没有职业操守，就不可能做到爱岗敬业。我们培养敬业精神，一定要紧紧抓住加强道德修养这个重点。

好多领导都喜欢说几句

贾老师，不愧是儒学精英。

感谢了，学习了哈！:D

听君一席话，胜读十年书啊

看君一篇文，胜读十年书！

看了老师们的点评和解说，胜读十年书！

感谢，为什么有乱码啊？

学习了，受到了很多启发